Question: What is your assessment of the morale of prison officers at present?

Brian Caton: I think that it can be summed up in two fairly straightforward statements. One is it could definitely be better, and secondly that is what the prison officers association is trying to do.

Question: Has morale been lower than it was under the Conservatives?

Brian Caton: No. I think there is a feeling now that things are changing. There is always going to be change and the POA want to be part of that change, to be involved in the very earliest decisions being made. I think in regard to the political situation, prison officers generally recognise that we have got a government that is certainly more friendly to the POA. Labour has probably got bigger and better ideas for the criminal justice system. It will take time of course for those to come to fruition and effect the lives of prison officers. Currently our working lives are not as good as we would like them to be. Nevertheless, we believe that we are now better off as workforce than we were under the Conservative governments.

Question: OK. You say that morale could be better. What are the reasons for this lower morale?

Brian Caton: I think one has to look first of all at pay, and pay related issues. We as a trade union fought for many many years to get good basic pay for prison officers. We were given an assurance in 1987, when we accepted what was called "the fresh start" system, This promised prison officers would no longer work overtime and would be rewarded well for their labours. Since that time we have seen prison officers called to work excessive hours which are paid back by time off in lieu. So we are still working overtime, the difference is of course that we are not getting paid. Indeed the standards of pay, the levels of pay against comparable trades like the police and fire service have been driven down, and that has happened since 1987. We are now lagging way behind, to such an extent that some of our prison officers are now falling into government subsidies for living - various social security payments. That can't be right in a job like the prison officer has, where he/she is open to temptation from criminals. They should be rewarded appropriately for the work that he/she carries out.

Question: Has this pay issue led to a problem with recruitment?

Brian Caton: We have a very severe problem that is fully recognised by the prison service regarding recruitment and retention. Particularly in the south-east, but in various other areas in the country. The prison services' answer to that is to work from within the same budget. To cut down the pay of those working where there isn't a recruitment problem and to subsidise those in high cost areas to the detriment of others. We believe that there are two aspects to pay. One is that it hurts just as much when you are hit by a prisoner in Wandsworth as it does in Durham prison. It is the same work. The other aspect of course is that our people have a difficulty purchasing housing in parts of the south-east and London. It can't be right for a prison officer in the south-east, having to live in an old caravan in a farmyard. That is just not fair.

Question: The government subsidises other key public services. Are they subsidising the prison officers for living in the south-east?

Brian Caton: Yes they are, but not to the same extent as the police. It is quite right that on this issue we do draw comparison with the police. It is a uniform service, it is dealing with what the police catch, rather than catching them. We believe that the money paid in London subsidies by the Home Secretary to the police who are funded both by Local Authority and the Home Office, is an insult to prison officers, in so much as prison officers are funded centrally by the Home Office, and have just the same kind of difficulties as the police in housing, but are overlooked. And we often use the phrase that we are a forgotten service. In that regard we certainly are. The government should accept prison officers as "key workers".

Question: Scottish prison officers have staged an unofficial strike over new working shift patterns. Can you see English prison officer following suit?

Brian Caton: We would never ever say never to industrial action. That is what the trade union movement is built on.

Question: But is the problem the same down here as it is up in Scotland?

Brian Caton: No it isn't. We have not in the past accepted some changes that have taken place in Scotland. The difficulties in Scotland of course is those procedures and processes that the Scottish Prison Service they were involved in formulating along with ourselves and our colleagues from Northern Ireland, now have not been implemented in Scotland. It appears that Scotland wants to be different for the sake of being different. The Scottish Prison Services Chief Executive seems to want a certain amount of Scottishness with everything, and that is causing the POA difficulties in negotiations, and will continue to, until he realises we have the common sense and modern approach to industrial relations and he needs to sign up to it.

Question: Do you think devolution is causing problems in terms of the way prisons are being run and managed?

Brian Caton: Well I think the public service generally in Scotland is on one hand - you have teachers being treated very very well in Scotland and we have the repercussions south of the boarder by teachers. I have to say we wholeheartedly support their efforts to get a commonality across the United Kingdom. Then we have the prison service in Scotland behaving exactly opposite to that and behaving in a very austere way towards its workforce. There are good things in devolution. We are very supportive of devolution even down to the English regions, but I have to say if we are going to see the same kinds of difficulties created then we view it with great suspicion. It is down to individuals, it is down to those who are implementing the policy, rather than the policy of devolution itself.

Question: The Director General of the Prison Service, Martin Narey, described the prison service as institutionally racist. And in a recent ePolitix interview, the Chief Inspector of Prisons, Sir David Ramsbotham said that there are "pockets of prison officers who have had a discriminative attitude towards prisoners in terms of race, gender, age and disability". How do you respond to these criticisms of prison officers?

Brian Caton: I will deal with Martin Narey's comments first. Yes, there are racist elements in the prison service and in all walks of life. We will, along with Martin Narey find them out, and get rid of them. I have to say that when we looked at the history of racism, and various acts of discrimination in the prison service, it is the Prison Officers Association that has got rid of racists. It is the prison service in part that has protected them by keeping them in employment.

Question: So, perhaps shown a blind eye in the past?

Brian Caton: Certainly, indeed some governors I believe were part of that grouping. Fortunately that seems not to be the case at this time and many of the leopards have changed their spots. Nevertheless, we want rid of racists, we will not tolerate them in the union. Neither will we tolerate bullying, or sexism in our union, we will get rid of them. We hope that the prison service will do the same.

With regard to Sir David Ramsbotham. He is a very frustrated man. He is a man on the last throws of his tenure of office, and he has in the past failed to realise a few things. First of all, in his previous occupation he was surrounded by similar kind of uniforms and indeed probably had the similar kind of level of racists. I don't think he tackled them then. The other thing is that to say that there are pockets of racism is totally untrue and has not been substantiated. We would ask him to place the evidence before us of where it is, as I have said before we will get rid of racism, there is no place for racists in the POA and no place for a Chief Inspector of Prisons who makes untrue allegations.

Question: So do you think it is a case of in many occasions your officers have turned into scapegoats?

Brian Caton: If the "system" can find someone easy to blame, then it will. The criticisms that we have seen about Feltham particularly and about Brixton quite rightly should be lodged against the way that Feltham and Brixton have been managed in the past. They have not been managed in the way we would have wanted to have seen them managed and we are the biggest critics of mismanagement, in all aspects, not only in providing care and rehabilitation to prisoners, but also in the way they have dealt with racism and sexism.

Question: Going back to Sir David Ramsbotham, he says there needs to be a root and branch reform of the management structure of the prison system. Do you go along with that and how would you like to see it reformed?

Brian Caton: He might in his retirement want to spend a bit of time revisiting all the reports that have been written on the prison service and look into where there is a novel or new way of managing the prison service. I have to say that what the prison service needs now, it has needed for many years, is a radical approach, and that is stability. Leave us alone for two years, let new things bed in before you change them again. That is the only way and Sir David should know that, his experience in the past, his abilities are not limited, he should know that the best way of making sure that change happens is to allow the change to bed in and the re-assess it. The prison service haven't done that the and to be perfectly honest, Sir David hasn't helped that process.

Question: Is it a case of too many directives, too much paperwork, too many operatives from above?

Brian Caton: There are a number of facets. The prison service is part of the civil service. The civil service by its whole nature tends to give out unnecessary instructions on unnecessary matters. The prison service is a very difficult organisation to manage, but nevertheless could be managed a lot better. The way in which the authority was removed from prison officers without first assessing whether this would effect the work that they do has not been correct. All in all what I would say is let's change what is appropriate to change and don't change effective authority of prison officers. But most important, let's ensure that the authority that prison officers need to do their job is again given to them. Currently prison officers feel undermined and forgotten. They feel that their authority is constantly questioned, both from prisoners and from their direct managers. The way in which the prison system is managed needs to bed in, needs to settle down and we need some stability and time to make sure it is working appropriately.

Question: How accurate are reports of the rising number of violent incidents, attacks from prisoners?

Brian Caton: There is an overall rise in acts of violence both against prisoners and staff, and that continues to be of the most severe concern to us.

Question: Is it due to overcrowding?

Brian Caton: It is a general issue, it is both prisoners bringing with them from society a violent attitude. It is our job to try and eradicate that. Overcrowding does not help. Where overcrowding exists the system of discipline and control has in the main been set aside. What we have got to do is get the balance right between on the one hand, control and on the other, care. I think the pendulum is firmly over in the direction of care and needs to be pulled back into the centre. But you can't keep it there when you keep changing things, stability is important.

Question: What is at stake if the pendulum stays where it is?

Brian Caton: Well, the prison population will continue to grow, violence will continue to grow, particularly by young offenders. Young offenders now in the main, particularly juveniles are out of control. They are being allowed to get away with acts of violence, aggression and disruption in prisons, in the name of a philosophy that says "let's treat these people nice and they will behave". even to the extent of prison officers not wearing prison officer uniform, because it upsets the young people that they are looking after. Well I find that nonsense.

Question: Does this create "no go" areas?

Brian Caton: Prison officers in the main will go where they are expected to go. We have had experience in the past of "no go" areas and I have to say that as far as we are concerned, we will not allow "no go" areas. Prison officers will patrol and will police the prison estate. The difficulty is a similar position that the police have. When you catch a perpetrator and they get off scot-free, the perpetrator will continue to act in the same way. When you think about the fact that these people are at the end of the line, they have had all the niceness from social services, they have had all the niceness at school, and have probably been failed by that, they have probably been on a non-custodial sentence and that has failed, when we reach the end of the line I think it is time for a "big jerk of the reigns". I am not in favour of harsh and violent regimes, but I am in favour of control and discipline. There is nothing wrong in instilling that into people. That is what brings out the best, it is what brings out self-discipline. The way in which the youth justice board is steering young offenders is heading for disaster.

Question: Have officers reported a rise in the usage of drugs in young offenders institutions and in prisons?

Brian Caton: Well I think the issue of drugs in prison has been fairly well tackled. It was only tackled following the POA making such a noise about the drug problem in prison over the past ten, fifteen years. We are fairly good now at dealing with drugs and all aspects of drug use. Not just finding them and punishing the offender, but helping the individual to get off drugs and to hopefully not go back on them. It is a major cause of crime and we recognise that. Our job of course is to prevent the next victim.

When you are sending someone out of the prison who is still on drugs, normally they will steal and use violence in order to get the money to fund the habit. What we want to ensure is that we have the best possible people in place to be able to deliver therapy, care and of course detection. We don't want prisoners taking drugs. We don't want them taking them on release. I have to say that we are probably more advanced than any other prison service in the world in detection and the treatment of drugs related issues. So much so that we have recently been requested to provide help to Peru, which has probably the worst prison drug problem in the world. As a union we are trying to arrange that, mindful that the prison service agency seems more than a little bit reluctant to assist us.

Question: You say that the police officers, the teachers, they have all been dealt with by the politicians. And you feel neglected in the last couple of years by politicians of all parties?

Brian Caton: I've never had any great expectation of being treated wonderfully by any part of the political spectrum. On a simple basis that, by the far right we are seen as left wing, because we have a very strong union, and by the far left we are seen as ultra right wing, by the fact that we lock people in cells. In reality prison officers specifically are fairly middle-of-the-road kind of people, and unfortunately the pendulum hits them so regularly as it swings backwards and forwards. We would like it to settle firmly on the idea of common sense recognising that criminals don't change when they come through a prison gate, they are still violent and at times dangerous, but they need the help. We need the stability in order to move the prison service forward. We can't deal with constant change, it just affects prisoners so badly, it effects staff in the way that they deal with prisoners, badly, and the prison service will jerk backwards and forwards as a result of it.

Question: So, what would you like to see in the political parties manifestos, regarding prisons and prison officers?

Brian Caton: I would like the Labour Party to honour its constant pledges to be tough on crime and the causes of crime. To treat prison officers as a key part of the criminal justice system. I would like to see the Labour Party re-examine the possibility of forming a justice department, one that would be all encapsulating, the prison officer and the whole judiciary would be part of the same department, and therefore would be able to manage better. I'd like them to give us someone as a prisons minister who recognises the very difficult job that prison officers do. On top of that, if Gordon Brown, would try very hard to provide us with more money in the way of pay for prison staff generally and prison officers specifically, I am sure morale would be uplifted.

Question: Do you regard Paul Boateng as a champion for prison officers at present?

Brian Caton: No I don't. I find Paul a difficult politician to deal with. However I find him a very interesting politician and a bastion for issues to do with mental health, which is my particular, specific field of expertise. I wish that Paul would view prison officers generally in the receptive way that he views my work on mentally disordered offenders.