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By Dominic Gover - 4th October 2010
ePolitix.com reports from the ResPublica fringe on the localism agenda and the Big Society, which examined work happening in Cumbria and looked at how their model could be transplanted across the country.
Greg Clark, communities and local government minister, opened the discussion. He said that "the best ideas come not from ministers but from people".
He said that he was working with Eric Pickles, secretary of state for communities and local government, to "turn our department upside down".
Instead of the top-down model with ministers telling communities what to do he wanted communities to come to ministers with ideas, and for the department to find ways to help them enact those ideas.
Rory Stewart, the Cumbrian MP, agreed that local people knew more and could do more than those in remote government departments. He illustrated the problems that Cumbria, as the most sparsely populated constituency, faced. For example, for some people it would take up to an hour to reach the nearest hospital.
In response to this Cumbria now contained the greatest number of community co-operatives anywhere, he said. Examples of these were; setting up broadband, air ambulances, and banks. He proposed disseminating this model around the country.
Lord Wei, government adviser on the big society, gave his definition of the big society as "a society in which we don't feel small". He outlined three ways in which we feel "small".
These were; bureaucracy - he explained that the government was already working to removing red tape; isolation - he emphasised that the big society called on people to work in groups and that the government was not best placed to reach isolated people; and shut-out - where people were not allowed to participate because of regulations.
He said "the needs in different places are very different" and "that is why localism and decentralisation is so important".
He also noted that different communities, even those in the most remote and the most densely populated areas still shared characteristics.
Matthew Parris, Times journalist and former Conservative MP, asserted that there was more to the big society idea than some of its critics had allowed for. However, he decided to play the role of devil's advocate here.
He said it was becoming difficult to separate the big society idea from the cuts agenda.
He wondered whether the top down model of governance was the cause or a symptom of the lack of civil society. If it were a consequence then he suggested that the big society agenda would not be able to rectify this.
He said that in Cumbria there was a strong sense of community but that not all neighbourhoods had this. It was also often the case that whilst it was easy to get people motivated to complain or protest about things, it was difficult to get them motivated to take on the burden of maintaining public services, he said.
Where there was palpable local need for a service it was much easier, he said, using the example of broadband.
He suggested that there needed to be some sort of motivating factor involved if people were to set up services by themselves - for example, a realisation that if they did not do it no-one, not even the government, would.
He also spoke about rivalries between local government and big society groups, as local officials might well not take kindly to others "muscling in" on their territory; local government was in effect an agency of the state he said.
However, Parris concluded on a positive note saying that whilst he had previously been sceptical of the big society idea he was now a lot more in favour having seen good working examples of it in practice. He said that the more good examples were around the more people would be persuaded of its effectiveness.
Stewart agreed with this, and said that what kept them going in Cumbria was the fact that it seemed to be working really well.
Explaining further his vision of the big society Stewart said "government as we know it will continue to exist" and that the big society would be fitted in around this.
"The big society is an approach, a way of doing things" he said.
John Harris of the Guardian asked how the cuts agenda fitted in with the big society, or whether they were totally separate.
Stewart was adamant that they must be kept separate. The big society might save the government money he said, but he was emphatic that this should not be its purpose.
Nick Partridge, chief executive of the Terrence Higgins Trust, asked how the big society planned on resolving conflict within communities. So far the communities it referred to were geographic, but he noted that there were many other types - such as the gay community.
Stewart agreed that whilst it was often tempting to claim to have found the voice of the community in fact such a thing rarely existed. It would be the business of the community organiser to resolve conflict he said. He added that conflict resolution was also why democracy had to play such a central role in the big society; through elected parish councils for example.
Alex Ward, a volunteer, spoke about the restrictions that things such as CRB checks and insurance requirements placed on voluntary groups.
Parris said he hoped that Lord Young would tackle the insurance issue in his health and safety review. He criticised the insurance industry for creating awkward situations for people by placing far greater requirements on them than the statutory obligations.
Stewart said that CLG had already set up teams of civil servants to act as "barrier busters" in this regard.
Tom Walker, who chaired a community alliance across seventeen parishes in Eden Valley, said that the parish council formed the ideal unit for the big society to work from. They already had certain powers, and were regulated sufficiently to start initiating big society ideas, he said. This was how he saw the big society model beginning to be replicated across the country.
He added that the primary barrier big society groups faced was the entrenched local government official. He proposed politically appointed local government officers.
Judith Howell, head of government affairs at the RSPB, strongly urged the government to work with voluntary groups as these had the knowledge and expertise that was needed to further the ideals of the big society.
A journalist from a German publication asked a question about the role government could play in what essentially seemed like community organising.
Billy James, from Cumbria, said that the big society would be easier to realise if small local businesses were in better condition.
Parris said that the very existence of voluntary groups on the scale of the RSPB demonstrated that the big society could work.
Stewart agreed that things outside the realm of government, such as small business and voluntary groups, also needed to change in order for the big society to be a success.
He concluded that the role of the government would be to give assistance by removing unnecessary legislation, providing civil servants to create the legislative framework, providing finance and giving leadership.
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