What should the government and the parliamentary party do in the clearly tense period between now and the report from Lord Hutton?

Clive Soley: I think the less said about the affair during Lord Hutton's inquiry, the better.

Question: As the recess gets underway is this time for reflection on the issue of party discipline?

Clive Soley: I certainly think the party generally needs to recognise the dangerous position it is in at the moment. Obviously there are issues which have caused significant divisions in the party - most notably Iraq.

But people need to remember that there are arguments on both sides on that issue and we need to respect each other positions.

On the other ones, yes things like foundation hospitals, top-up fees and so on, they are very difficult issues, but there are ones that we have to recognise and should not be allowed to damage the whole party and the government.

It is times like this, you need to bear, in mind:

a. what the alternative is to a Labour government, and;

b. all previous Labour governments have foundered usually after one or one and a half terms on internal division.

You are right. They need to reflect on it. But that does involve everyone from the ordinary member, to Cabinet ministers, the prime minister and so on.

Everybody needs to focus on the importance of not losing the plot.

Question: To what extent is there now an issue of battles being fought by proxy. Certain MPs clearly didn't get their way on the war, they are now willing to transfer that frustration to other issues which they wouldn't necessarily pick up a fight upon?

Clive Soley: I don't think it's that so much. I think the problem, and the one that all prime ministers get about this stage, I remember the same happening to Margaret Thatcher, is that after about six or seven years you get to that stage where an awful lot of people who've either fallen off the greasy pole or not got on it, and there's therefore a lot of people on the backbenches with a lot of experience, a lot of feeling about wanting to put the world to rights, and they are prepared to be much more upfront about it.

And inevitably, the government has done many of the things it wanted to do when it first got elected, so you immediately run into these rather choppy waters where you get people shouting, "no, not that way, go this way instead". And obviously some of that does have a personal side to it.

Question: To what extent do you think the government is a victim of its own actions by not giving the impression or getting involved in consultation on radical proposals for public services?

Clive Soley: Well, I think the slight difference is here, yes we need to involve the trade unions more but the trade unions do need to look to their own history a bit.

I use the foundation hospitals as a model - I accept some of the criticisms about, there are aspects of it you feel haven't been consulted on widely enough, and also that maybe the health service doesn't need quite so much management reform.

But I also remember, as a member of what used to be the Confederation of Health Service Employees, 20 years ago when the COHSE was in the forefront of the fight to preserve local management of hospitals against the then-Tory government trying to put it under a national model.

So given that they were virtually out on the streets then, arguing for local control, it is a bit odd to say you can't now have it. So I do think people need to have a longer memory on this one.

On the top-up fees, it's a much more difficult issue, because as somebody rather correctly observed the other day, the policy is right but the politics of it are pretty grim.

Question: What can ministers do in real terms to correct that?

Clive Soley: I think more consultation is important, I don't in any way want to understate that. I also think, particularly after Iraq, the focus on the local issues is very important.

I think we have to be very careful about some of the other side issues, which I think are often very, very important, such as the problem with local education authorities recently, which wasn't anticipated, and Charles Clarke has put right in the House of Commons, but the publicity on that and the feeling about it has probably done us quite a bit of damage, so we need to get a bit smarter on dealing with those problems as soon as they arise, not sometime afterwards.

Question: Do you think that the systems are in place to ensure constituency parties at the grassroots will have enough input into that manifesto?

Clive Soley: There's never going to be a situation where they have as much as I think everybody would like them to have, it is very, very difficult to consult membership of a couple of hundred thousand in a way that makes the membership feel involved.

I happen to think the policy forum approach is right, but it is probably true to say that the policy forum has not been working as well at local levels, it's not been working as well as one would like.

And whether that's about party management, or ministers not getting out enough or local parties not organising it - frankly it's probably a combination of all those things from time to time - but I don't know any better way of involving people in policy than policy forums, actually.

Question: As we go through the summer towards the conference season, there is speculation this could be a bloody conference for Labour - what sort of tone should ministers be striking to allay fears of the rank and file members?

Clive Soley: Well certainly a 'we are listening' one is very, very important and they do need to be looking out for new ideas from party members about what the party ought to do, whether it's in terms of public service or totally new areas of issues.

I also think the prime minister particularly needs to respond to the very deep feelings there were over Iraq, because as I've indicated there's strong feelings on both sides and that I took a strong view in support of the military action.

I don't think anyone could put their hand on their heart on either side of this argument and say, "I know I was right" with any absolute confidence, it was one of those very, very difficult judgements and we need to get that message over.

Question: How long realistically can we expect the prime minister to remain, all things being equal, after Clare Short's comments about an "elegant succession"?

Clive Soley: Well, I don't think his present problems are terminal, or anything of that nature. But it is probably true that he won't return to the very high position he had in the late 1990s, early 2000, I don't think that's possible.

I have to say, and this is important to put this in context, given the 24-hour nature of the current media, I don't think prime ministers will ever again return to a situation where they can be in power for 10, 15 or more years, I just don't think we're going to have that experience again while the media puts the focus so intensely on one person.

But I don't think Tony's likely to go in the near future, I do think he's got plenty of mileage left in him.

He does need to respond well to the present problems, but if he does that there's no reason why he shouldn't lead us beyond the next election.

After that, I think he has to start thinking, as any prime minister would do, of how long they want to go on for.

Question: Sufficient to say its three to four years away, rather than three to four months way?

Clive Soley: No, I wouldn't really agree with that, because apart from anything Clare's got her agenda about trying to get Tony to go, and I don't share that and I think she's wrong on that. But also, I don't think you can automatically assume elegant successions.

I know Gordon Brown would like an elegant succession, but really it's very hard to see what the party will want in three or four years time and I don't think there's any sort of guarantees about succession.

So I think all you have to say is if Tony Blair's still doing a good job in leading the country, then he needs to stay there.

When he's ready to go, and assuming that we don't get into terrible trouble of any sort, and I think that I've already indicated he doesn't need to be in that situation, then there will be a proper election system at that time and although Gordon might well get it, there are no absolute guarantees.

Question: To what extent do you think the apparent convergence in the poll ratings between Labour and the Tories is indicative of an opposition getting its act together?

Clive Soley: It is getting its act together. There's no doubt in my mind that both the Tory party and the Liberal party are getting more effective at opposition. Having said that, I also think that they're not in a position to win easily.

If you think about it, the Tory party's got one hell of a problem while its still deeply divided on the European issue, and unlikely to claw back all the support it had in the country in the past because of that issue, and the Liberals are in a very bizarre position, because theoretically they ought to be benefiting from our problems and to some extent are, but you have to ask why would people vote for a party that presented itself in parliament as being to the left of the Labour Party when all the seats where they come second are ones where they need to be well to the right of the Labour Party.

They can't win in that position, they can only do damage to the Tories if they do well. So in a curious sort of way, despite the fact that they're both doing better as an opposition, they're both in the wrong position in order to win the next election.

Question: In terms of the result of the next election, do you think the party would be better off getting a normal and manageable majority?

Clive Soley: Well, far be it for any politician to say his party ought to lose seats! I'm not in the business of losing seats; I want to win them.

I suppose the only thing I can say to you is obviously party management has problems if your majority is very small or if it's very large, the management problems are always more difficult.

Having said that, I would far rather be winning seats than losing seats.